Transcript

(00:01) [Music] so welcome everybody my name is jonathan frakes we’re here to talk about handshake in the traditional domain ecosystem and uh what a fun topic right um i think we heard vinnie just in the past uh piano talking a little bit about interoperability and uh jehan was talking a little bit about um like how uh you know browsers ultimately you know right now don’t all work interchangeably and there’s certain aspects of the project that um still have to reach out into the the rest of the internet so i’m

(00:45) privileged to be your moderator today my name is jonathan frakes and i’m the co-founder of a conference called namescon and merge i’m the vice chair of the icann contract at party house tech ops that’s the registries and registrars and i’m on the registrar stakeholder group uh executive committee i also own an icann accredited registrar called private label internet service kiosk i’m joined today uh by tom barrett who is the ceo of uh icann accredited registrar in circa uh bradley milligan who is the

(01:19) chief operating officer of uh the ens domains project um and mike carson who is the ceo and founder of park.io and a really incredible project called impervious that is doing quite a lot for a lot of the technology needs for the handshake project thank you for joining me today guys yeah thanks absolutely happy to be here so uh i’ll kind of be monitoring the chat a little bit but i welcome people to ask questions we’ll probably hold the questions to the very end of the session because we have a lot of ground to cover

(01:53) in about 30 minutes um i wanted to start off and just talk a little bit and segway a little bit from what vinnie was talking about with interoperability you know whereas discussions about cloudflare and other other systems that’ll have a tremendous i think uh effect uh should they choose to adopt or integrate uh handshake names into their offerings or their systems and you know we’re gonna talk a little bit about what are the things that are affecting that both good and bad what are the things that they’re looking

(02:25) for um and then there’s another system which is the icann accredited registrars resellers hosting companies out there uh and how they may endorse or embrace this so there’s a resolution layer and there’s a registration layer and i think those are important pieces because they are you know part of how we’re going to get the domains out into people’s hands and how people will be able to use them in general in general so i’d like to start off uh first talking with mike carson a little bit

(02:53) about um the platform gateway.io and some of the work that’s been done to help um uh people who’ve acquired handshake names um to make second level of names available to people uh so mike can you talk a little bit about gateway.io and um and how that’s working uh what what kind of traction you’re seeing and uh and then we’ll talk a little bit more about another of your projects a little bit later in the section uh but can you tell us a little bit about gateway.

(03:28) io and what you’re doing there yeah so so park.io set up a registry operator a registry system that’s epp based which is the standard protocol for managing domain names like all regi most registries and registrars like for dot com and like dot io and you know dot org and all that stuff they the registrars talk to the registry through epp and so we set up basically we uh we uh with the help of james stevens the guy who ran the dot io registry for 10 years he set up this whole registry system for us and um so yeah we’ve been uh working with name based at io to

(04:12) integrate that with registrars and 101 domain uh selling and circa selling and gateway.io is selling second level domains uh on handshake tlds using the traditional standard epp protocol registry system for that and um yeah so i mean uh yeah like i don’t know if you like recently um there’s been a lot i mean suddenly we’re getting a ton of uh one of our one of the tld’s in the system is is really starting to ramp up and get a lot of second level registrations which is dot c um it just recently moved into the top

(04:55) 500 tlds of all like including icann and uh it’s growing pretty fast like today i was watching it and there’s like i mean just registration after registration the whole day basically so it’s pretty cool that’s pretty cool you probably have a little bit more insight into the statistics and things like you know in the icann world um they’ve got a thing called the centralized zone file uh system where you can go and you can download the zone files for the various um tlds and so there’s a website called

(05:27) ntldstats.com where you can actually go and you can look on a daily basis um you know which of the thousand so odd um icann root tlds uh are and you can look at you know which registrars are selling more of them or less of them and and there’s a lot of open data there that um i think you know we’ll probably see people um democratizing that data uh to some extent uh within the handshake world but um that’s all that you have visibility into those statistics yeah that’s i uh that’s where i got that

(06:04) it moved into the top 500 looking at that site and i would love to put handshake tlds on there and i think eth should go like that eth should go on there too i mean it’s probably way up there i mean with hundreds of thousands of registration but you know like i just you know this is a little maybe off tangent but i just want to mention like eth is a tld like ens is like kind of a tld like eth is a tld and handshake is the root zone so like they’re kind of they’re they’re they’re sep you know they’re different like i heard vinnie

(06:35) talking about how you know i think handshake and enos are the two competitors but to me they’re not like competitors really like they could be used together like they’re complementary in in a way like that’s how i see is yeah that’s that certainly seems like it’d be uh the case and and all of the different projects that i’ve found in in the blockchain space i think are all in different ways complementary or overlap it’s not apples to apples comparison with each technology because they all have different

(07:04) i think benefits and features that make them stand out more so than the others um and tom all right okay something real quick on that of course yeah not to get off track on it but so first of all hi everybody i’m director of operations at ethereum service thank you for being here i look red because i got sunburned today it’s not because i’m embarrassed to be here i’m happy to be here um i just wanted to say so mike you said that ens is like the donny’s name so common misconceptions so ens is a

(07:31) naming protocol that has its own route can support any top-level domain in fact has many topical domains beyond dot e functioning in the system uh which are dns top level domains we have some we’re expanding that uh but ens is not just dottie names it’s far beyond that yeah i mean it’s not bad we launched that badass too but you’re not trying to be a no no you’re not trying to be your own root zone is what i’m trying to say right so but when you have a root zone but handshake is trying to solve the

(07:58) root zone problem like ens is like showing that tld like the registry like software to run a regi uh a top level domain i guess well so so we do have a root zone and badass is not in the ens root zone so we have uh we have multiple top local domains in the ens root zone uh we have dot eth dot xyz.cred.lux.ceo.club.

(08:22) arts we’re actually going to be expanding that greatly so dot badass as you mentioned right is is in a fork of vns unconnected from ens that you’ve launched which is your right to do so ens is much more than just names that’s just that’s not true i just want to correct that that’s all we’ll touch on that a little bit later let’s let’s let’s let’s throw that hand grenade into the uh into the into the let’s not it’s not a hand grenade i’m just saying that’s just

(08:48) that i know that’s the fact people say enos is not east it’s much bigger than that we have a red zone yeah yeah well and and it’s complementary to the to a naming system right and we’ll touch a little bit on that because you know then it becomes which naming system right and and we can we can talk a little bit towards that but i wanted to jump in because of of interoperability and kind of segwaying on the registrar piece to talk a little bit with tom barrett um now tom i have the privilege of knowing

(09:14) you across the span of a couple decades now i hate to do the math on how long i’ve known you because then i feel um less than young and uh the uh the thing that i’ve always admired about in circa is uh as an icann accredited registrar you’ve always pioneered uh into more challenging integrations you do so much more for for different uh registries when you go and launch tlds uh in fact a recent example is the dot bot registry that was an icann uh root tld that amazon launched and they had to use you as an external registrar rather than

(09:53) their own registrar to to launch their own tld because it was complex and it required additional steps to validate with various bot uh validation systems and i recall as early as dot aero and even dot uh pro tld launches back in the the two auths um that your company was right at the front of the line picking out the difficult projects and doing a lot more to make those available and so i wanted to ask you about what attracted you within circa to making the handshake name space available and being so far ahead

(10:30) uh and and then you know maybe a second part of that might be to describe what you’re seeing thanks jonathan and uh you know i know mike and bradley they’re doing some great stuff i love i love your article dot badass mike that was fantastic i think everyone should actually take a read uh on dot badass so give you an idea of my perspective i’ve been involved in uh domain namespace since they first launched i was with a trademark research company back in the 90s and uh have been in the domain name space ever

(11:04) since in circa specializes in the top level domains that ask something extra from their end users they might be they’re typically restricted so we are the top reseller for example for dot bank dot bot dot pharmacy we’re the only reseller for cpa dot and so um i’ve seen 1200 or plus new extensions launched since 2000 and the number one lesson that i think you can glean from those new tld launches is that every tld is a brand right and so you need to understand that it’s it’s not good enough to simply have a tld that matches a

(11:56) dictionary word or some common string that’s not the same as being a brand and so what we’ve seen with the launch of new icann tlds is that folks who thought they won the lottery because they they won the rights to run some dictionary word in fact don’t have successful businesses because they never branded their tld and so uh your tld is a brand it needs a business plan uh the handshake tlds are no different than the icann tlds don’t believe that you’ve won the lottery because you have some dictionary word or

(12:37) common string you need to differentiate your string from all the rest and so uh that’s a that’s a lesson you know a common frame i want to impart to everyone here so um in circa uh again focuses on the tlds that are focused on branding themselves uh we specialize in a certain uh well-known uh strings where we can have a differentiation from folks like godaddy and we’re interested in doing the same thing with handshake as well so i’ll stop there if you have a question jonathan or i can keep talking no i

(13:21) think that’s a really important point is that that uh you know if you look at the abundance that that came from the 2012 round i think the you know there was a lot of time involved in assimilating that as uh retail so so to to maybe make a real simple analogy for uh for most folks and i think we’ve got more technical audience but um for those who aren’t familiar with all the real housewives of how the domain registration system works there’s you know registries uh which is i’d like into being a

(13:54) manufacturer and then there’s registrars which i’d like into being a store and then registrants which is the customer and the customers can’t go direct to the manufacturers in the world of icann they go through these stores and the stores are where they manage the resolution and registration aspects of their domain so they may modify their who is they may update their dns records and work and um anyway when the 2012 round came out there was an absolute abundance of uh top-level domain options and choices and you have

(14:28) companies i see donuts is in the audience and there’s other companies uh central neck minds machines affiliates nustar i could rattle off tons of these but there was just an abundance of choice that came to the market and now um where where tld options at a registrar uh and selling them the it really changed it transformed from being something that uh was you know i’m here for my.

(14:56) com and then i’ll pick up this uh when i launch and so as as you’re coming through and you’re coming out with even more of those options for customers you really do need to differentiate yourself uh and think about shelving and and retail space and how you know the red how you want the registrar to position you and how you’re going to make it attractive for them to do that what’s your community who are you serving what’s the addressable market i think did i hear you correctly tom that that’s

(15:25) what you’re looking at correct so i’m i’m interested in partnering with with handshake tlds that have a a true business plan that they they don’t just have a common dictionary word or a common string but they have a business plan where they are differentiating themselves from the competition and the competition includes other blockchain domains as well as icann domains uh i should say i’m also chair of the blockchain subcommittee for the uh trademark association and as you know trademark association

(16:08) represents 10 000 trademark lawyers and so my my task or mission with the blockchain subcommittee is to identify the opportunities for brand owners on the blockchain uh they tend to be things related to anti-counterfeiting uh supply chain traceability etc and so uh there are truly opportunities um with with uh blockchain domain names that uh solve a problem for brand owners uh those are the sort of tlds i’d like to hear from um but you know uh just like you’re not allowed to yell fire at a movie theater

(16:50) you know don’t have a value proposition that is simply you know looking to break the law i’m looking for uh for example the business partner folks that are trying to solve a problem for businesses utilizing blockchain demandings and i think there’s a lot of opportunity there i think we hear a lot about censorship but censorship from a from a trademark perspective um you know when i i was recently in hong kong and i went through the market and you know i was able to buy an amazing rolex replica watch and

(17:29) you know but it’s it was a counterfeit it was only 60 u.s uh and you know so is that counterfeit watch is is you know rolex seeking to preserve their brand integrity and counterfeiting is it are you censoring the counterfeit from having.lorax uh you know and selling that watch or are you uh you know just exercising exercising natural brand protection and uh intellectual property management there’s a there’s a difference i think in a distinction between counterfeiting and um and and other things even more brightline things like what’s

(18:06) called csam or other things that should be taken down or have some governance and uh you know censorship i think that those are not necessarily uh simple topics and we don’t want to dive too far into them because they’re not very attractive to talk about but um there is a difference between free speech and what you do with free speech if it’s illegal and have jonathan i want to interject this is a great book everyone should read it called crossing the chasm by jeffrey moore it’s the bible if you’re

(18:38) if you’re launching a startup and so you know the big the big part about crossing the chasm is how do you go from your early adopters into a mass market opportunity and uh i understand that blockchain is anti-censorship i just don’t believe that that feature is compelling enough to cross the chasm i don’t think there’s a big enough market out there for people who care about anti-censorship truth so for folks who thinks that that’s their value proposition i don’t think they’re going to cross the

(19:17) chasm they need something more compelling than that so um good good topics and i think that these are the things that um i can tell you from within the i can community people who can make very very significant impacts on adoption whether it’s um you know offering the names at storefronts like in circle 101 domains or gateway.

(19:41) io it’s also you know discussions around the people who are the resolution providers so the cloud flares and the the other um you know very very large inflection points convincing them that this is a trustworthy project that it has a strong um uh i guess governance with a lowercase g or accountability and and less wild west uh is going to certainly increase the trust and uh we’ll see more people attracted to uh coming into the space um brantley speaking of people being attracted to coming into the space um you know we got a little opportunity

(20:17) to talk about the um scintillating topic of you know how ens domains works and it’s really different than uh how the handshake project works and in fact there was a important comment in the chat where somebody was saying are you here to collaborate with us are you here to compete with us i think it boils down to unique strings being the most important piece so that there’s no wallet or contract or nft confusion is that is that the crux of it uh well i mean that’s part of it so um of course handshake

(20:52) is um trying to replace the root zone of the domain name system right so that’s all that it’s doing it’s only trying to do the root zone for topical domains that’s a very intentional strategic decision if you read the history of handshake um ens uh has a root zone although it is not trying to like replace the root zone of dns but ens is a full stack dns what i call complement so it can you can have in the dns system topical domain second level domains third level domain subdomains you can store records in ens the whole

(21:31) system is self contained within block uh the ethereum blockchain or can be although we’re actually working to expand this to layer twos as well for scaling as everybody knows is the thing right now uh with handshake of course is just the root zone uh so like for example if i own a handshake topical domain i’m selling second level domains on those those second level domains are not like blockchain domains they function um like the rest of dns uh and this is uh so very different uh strategies for bringing blockchain

(22:04) technology i would say to internet naming um and then this the the second part i think that you’re mentioning or referencing is that handshake is uh creating a very very large number of topical domains a few of which actually have name collisions with dns so this is a common misconception people think that the name collisions are in the future that already exists um and we’ll likely have more in the future ens has taken a very different uh strategic uh view of this uh we don’t want to have name collisions with existing dns

(22:40) uh now or in the future and so we are integrating the existing dns name space and also as it grows into ns so on the issue of like you know are are we collaborating or not um ens and handshake at least in part have incompatible will will have incompatible name spaces so that that prevents um an incompatible uh strategy strategies that prevents collaboration on our part yeah we i just want to find out we we’re incl incompatible because handshake supports.

(23:17) eth and icann does not support eta like eth tld so they uh so we’re gonna but it doesn’t conflict so that’s the key point so there are there’s uh conflicts obviously i mean jonathan you were the one who pointed out with music and that’s you know i think there was another one as well and that may expand one thing i just would like to point out i mean yeah maybe i i don’t know if this is the right time but uh like you know like i think like this is a this is an opportunity like your blockchain ens is

(23:53) blockchain domains handshake is a blockchain root zone like we got a partner man like we can’t like be against each other and you know like ens saying that they’re uh the good citizens of the internet you know and like uh you know try they’re like well we’re not going to participate with handshake because they’re you know the bad guys they’re like trying they’re going to do collisions and stuff i didn’t say you guys are bad guys i’m just saying that they’re incompatible

(24:18) strategies here uh but like you’re well that’s fine but how can you say that when you have.eth like the ethiopia that’s reserved for ethiopia iso for ethiopia correct so how can you say that on one hand how can you say that you’re re because it’s not under use right so you’re right there is we do have a little bit of a problem there and you’re correct but i don’t think you have a problem bradley you’re never ethiopian has never got a claim dot t e t h you’re safe so so you have to understand the history

(24:48) here so the two letter and three letter country codes were reserved for countries so and and the two letters were actually given to the countries the three-letter country codes being reserved means that people can’t can’t like register them in a gtld round so technically in the future could there be a possible problem with dot eth i mean technically collisions now and likely well in the future in fact that’s the goal of handshake now that’s perfectly fine there’s nothing immoral about it there’s nothing illegal

(25:13) about it that’s perfectly fine enos we’re taking a very different strategy we think that our strategy obviously has the most chance of success of bringing blockchain technology to internet naming handshake is taking a different strategy and that’s fine we will see how it plays out but but yeah what’s the value of a decentralized uh tld if it’s in the in a centralized root zone do you feel like there’s value in that i mean yeah wouldn’t it be better wouldn’t it be better wouldn’t there be

(25:40) isn’t there more value in a decentralized you know a decentralized tld and a decentralized root zone i don’t know if yeah if you’re looking for decentralization yeah so you know jonathan can i respond to that yeah yeah sure and then we’re getting close to the time uh so i was to say you know this sounds like it would be a great like a clubhouse session where we go hash it out yeah i would love to you know just say mike uh in the chat said he extended this by 10 minutes oh okay great well thanks mike yeah

(26:08) thank you mike throw some red meat into the pen right so the other mike not mike carson might yes of course yeah so mike thank you to our gracious host for this yeah yeah mike um so we do have that so dot eth is a completely d you know is a decentralized so it’s like if you want right now the full benefits of blockchain decentralization for names we have that with dot eth right and we’d like to eventually have that for the whole root zone so i agree with the goals of handshake the root zone needs to make use of blockchain technology so

(26:45) these are yep oh sorry i keep going but yeah so uh well one thing is that there are key holders for eth and second i guess you want something similar for the you you’re saying you want a root zone that’s decentralized but i i assume you want like i can to have some control over that too well so here’s my take on it if i can let’s hear it well can i explain the technical thing though he he mentioned there which i think is a common misconception i mean what what what bradley’s proposing to do is to allow

(27:18) every icann tld to have access to ethereum and basically blockchainenable.com.net.org etc and that that’s from 10 000 feet i’ll let go go dive down from there yeah and by the way it’s not just the topical domains it’s the full stack right remember people i i often hear this from handshake people that’s fine i’m not against handshake people but people handshake people often talk as though they’re decentralizing the whole stack they’re only decentralizing the root zone and and the handshake um vision it

(27:55) doesn’t have to be this but the vision was that the rest of dns works the same so like if you own uh brantley.badass or bran i guess let’s say brainly.com their sign let’s say is running.com on handshake uh but brandon.com still works exactly the same in all their servers they have control over everything like that uh with with ens it’s it’s it’s for the whole stack um so in terms of decentralizing the root zone um to me that is a bigger issue of governance and a social process that i think

(28:27) is a is a going to take longer to evolve and convince people in the meantime though we can bring blockchain technology to the dns tech stack and get a lot of benefits right now whereas handshake is doing more of a we want to um overthrow the top thing right now now they might succeed if they succeed congratulations you know i would also point out just as a last comment on this even from a technical strategic standpoint for me if i if enos could create unlimited top-level domains in our route right we could we could create a million new topologies

(29:02) we could copy everything in handshake we could do more um uh we just and if i wanted to do what handshake’s doing which is trying to do the root i would do it on ethereum i wouldn’t do it on my own blockchain so even from like a collaboration standpoint if i was convinced of the handshake strategy i would just do it in ens on a theorem we don’t need handshake so you would rather do it on a on the all-purpose general purpose blockchain that has crypto kitties and stuff like that you’d rather run a root zone on that then

(29:32) yes because of composability and root zone is actually a great thing to run on a theory because it does require updates all the time but like a second level why not do a second level like handshake does the the root zone has one job the root zone is decentralized and then the second level we can do badass we can do badass on ens like right so i would say it’s actually the opposite so so that’s actually what we’re moving to so we’re actually working right now to get second level domains and records and

(29:57) all these things onto layer twos because ethereum layer one is a bad place to do that whereas the root zone is actually the best thing to have on ethereum layer one uh because of all the composability that you have whereas with handshake you’re silent off on your own chain you have your own separate coin you can’t even be in uniswap you know where you have to have a wrapped coin or something like this whereas with us we’re on ethereum we’re composable dows can own it we fit into all nft infrastructure

(30:21) we use ether so there’s no liquidity issues i’m just saying personally if i were to if i believed in the handshake mission i would just do that on ethereum in ens that’s that’s my opinion about it yeah give or take gas prices right now i mean so there’s things about it that are perfect and not perfect i think each of the projects um you know we don’t have unstoppable here today but you know each of the various projects that are very much outspoken about what it is they’re trying to do to benefit and evolve the

(30:49) name space have strengths and i think we have to look at them each for you know what they bring to the table and what are the advantages uh but but they don’t all work the same and they don’t all interoperate and it’ll have to be some choices i mean brantley you could today theoretically uh make a partnership with um uh them to do badass but it would require that you make some arbitrary and subjective choice to start being inclusive where you’ve got sort of a big line i have the same challenge i’m i’m

(31:20) the maintainer of a public resource called the public suffix list and we’re constantly asked to add new tlds into it that are not part of the the icann route and everything and you know because it’ll affect whether or not let’s encrypt we’ll add certificates or cloudflare will treat names as sub names or treat them as namespace and it goes further than that it goes into you know email operability and and search and search engines um and we’ve just got a hard line because we don’t get it we don’t want to get

(31:50) into the religious wars about which route prevails you know mac or pc or or i can root or handshake we just want to you know we’re volunteers so we just want to keep it really lightweight and we don’t want to be caught in those wars my point is if i wanted to have badass on ens i would just create dog badass and i wouldn’t need the handshake people okay that’s my point i’m saying we’re not we’re not doing that because we want to remain compatible but we don’t i’m just saying why do we need handshake

(32:20) and and i think i heard the other distinction that you made brantley is that somebody can leap in not at the top level but they can leap in at the third level if they wanted to and set up a wallet address or set up something and and associate an ens uh name with you so if i for example had a name through centralneck offer uk.

(32:40) com so i might get a third level like jotham.uk.com but let’s say verisign at the top level for com doesn’t support this i could leap in at that third level based off of the way you’ve configured this and not be blocked by what the choice of the top level domain is whereas in right now at least as it’s configured in handshake i would be so i i think we have to look at how that could be configured in order to allow people more of the flexibility to dive in at those different layers and you lose that when you leapfrog and

(33:10) start to work with different uh name spaces you know the bigger challenge here as you know is the collision factor or the leakage factor i can’t it’s fine as content with ethereum eth and handshake doing their thing as long as they don’t create collisions right as long as there’s a next round of tlds with icann and folks start applying for the same extensions of the handshake tlds you’re going to have collisions and and and there’s only going to be one winner out of that so so that that’s really the i know

(33:48) i know bradley has his strategy to try to avoid those collisions handshake is going to i think face them head-on and they already have them that’s the challenge yeah and also to be clear because ens is integrating the dns name space any collision that handshake has with dns is also a collision with ens and again i’m not trying people say i’m being salty and or i’m sorry i’m not trying to be just speaking what i think um ens is in 181 services including some including opera and brave and metamask i mean so like we’re in a

(34:24) lot we’re in 45 wallets we’re in a lot of daps and things like this so if handshake has any collision with uh dns it also has a name collision with ens that’s a problem even in the blockchain community i’m just pointing that out yeah so i mean what it is is ens will not integrate with handshake but we have put e and f in in we have put f into the handshake root zone and for the first time you can actually resolve with dns uh eth name using our plug-in that we made the handover plug-in for handshake so for the first time ever

(34:56) all these hundreds of hundreds of thousands of registrations we created the first resolvable dns websites and um you know like we’re in browsers and stuff we’re i mean thank you for that we appreciate but we’re in we’re another extension we’re in the metamask extension we’re in brave opera status metamask mobile but you know what like you you say you just do an in ens you would just do the root zone in in ens on aetherium but you know like you know it’s so easy to fork like we did it with that badass

(35:26) like it would be so easy to sell eth like i could just sell that i could sell the names like i could just create another root zone like it’s so easy to do it so it just seems like that is such a fragile way to do it compared to like uh one that’s backed by proof of work and like the only job is a root zone like it’s just the only 100 job is just one simple idea which is a secure and decentralized root zone whereas ethereum it’s like all purpose and anybody can fork it and we can make a million root

(35:57) zones we can make a hunt you know we can like so i yeah i just don’t see that to me it seems like a better fit is a decentralized root zone where the only job is decentralize and secure root zone and then bring ens onto the second layer which we’ve done with badass like i think that just makes it and with dot eth like it just makes a lot more sense that way and i love it i love dns for that yeah i just want to make it clear just because you keep saying this uh so ens doesn’t badass does not use it’s enos software it’s the you know we

(36:28) fork dns yeah right yeah yeah anyway people can hear more about your badass project tomorrow there’s a whole session dedicated to it mike and i think it sounds interesting for people maybe they would like to do that and obviously this is complex we had about 30 i think gratefully 40 minutes to talk about this but i think we could spend a whole afternoon perhaps even a whole week you know kind of working to untangle some of this stuff up and i’d like to kind of get us back onto the schedule so i really brantly thank you for coming in and

(36:56) mixing it up really glad you’re here um thank you for joining us today tom barrett we’re really grateful for your participation today and thank you uh for all the innovation you’re doing to to benefit the name space mike carson uh props to you uh thank you for uh for joining this panel and you know appreciate that we all got a chance to to talk through some of this and figuring out the ways that we’re gonna work with uh some of the traditional ecosystem and and um i really thank the audience for

(37:23) attending today and uh all of you uh you know happy handshaking cheers [Music] everybody [Music] you