Fireside Chat with Vinny


(00:01) [Music] really really privileged and honored to be able to host a good friend vinnie lingam who is the co-founder and ceo of civic he’s also a gp with multicoin vinnie has an incredible incredible background as a serial entrepreneur as an innovator as an influencer as a driver of many different kind of cutting edge ideas ranging all the way back to the early generation of internet um he’s got an incredible story to tell he’s from south africa he’s been one of the main kind of pioneers investors

(00:40) uh in that region uh and um i would say in in the more recently he’s come out as a as a handshake uh crusader uh which is we’re excited to have you in the community we’re excited to get all your support and experience in wisdom and uh really you know just want you to maybe say a few words introduce yourself tell a bit about your story and we’re going to we’re going to dive in about how you see a handshake great thanks john great to be here um yeah just you know excited about what what handshake is doing

(01:08) um and i i explained this to jian last time i gave him some context um my second you know startup company was actually a asps in europe around the world for website building software so kind of like the wix the wixers of the world but like if you’re an isp you want to offer that service to your customers um built in to your into the platform yolo is the the platform that a lot of them use so if you’ve got a whole bunch of customers there so i spent you know i spent the first uh i’d say the first four years in silicon

(01:37) valley building that company uh and we you know we had millions of users and et cetera so i i got pretty deep into the domain name space the hosting space we were one of probably one of the first or the first company to actually build a web hosting company on top of amazon for those who don’t know amazon ec2 is actually built out of cape town where i’m from uh and so cape town is the kind of the hub of amazon ec2 and web services that’s what was built and designed by uh some south africans and they still have a big

(02:04) presence there so we were very early adopters in it and um obviously dealing with web and and hosting you you get a sense of how fragile the current um you know dns mapping to icann tlds is and how you know this is how a lot of the fraud happens like we’ve had situations where people actually spoof they spoof domain names but not just that they actually get secure ssl certificates on top of that so like you know it’s amazing how insecure the web is and how easy it is to demand the middle attacks as well

(02:33) and so when blockchain came along funny enough years ago i was a big namecoin fan because i felt that namecoin could solve some of the problems with man-in-the-middle attacks especially even just on wi-fi um but you know i think we’ve gotten more secure over time so it probably you know with tls and some of the improvements that it has uh has improved quite a bit i haven’t and just i haven’t spent too much time in the names in the in the handshake ecosystem i’m when i say i’m new i kind of know about it for

(03:02) a while um but i haven’t taken it too seriously up until maybe a month ago and got got more involved jio and some of the developers i wanted to see what i can do more in the space um so technically i’m not too or fair with what what’s happening in the ecosystem but my first bit of advice the team and and people i spoke to was hey you gotta make sure this goes to cloudflare and we have to get you know uh some of the gateways to resolve to uh handshake domains and so that’s where it’s coming from and if we can do that i

(03:31) think we can build some momentum um just my brief cursory review of you know ens versus handshake i think that handshake is really more sensitive resistant and more decentralized at least at scale maybe not right now but at least scale and that’s why i was more attracted to handshake than ens personally and obviously um you know like there’s lots of reasons but yeah that’s just the starting point for why i’m i’m kind of joining this ecosystem and on a very steep learning curve and trying to put time into it uh which

(04:02) is precious right now in the current crypto markets um but i’m excited to be and thanks for having me awesome great to have you so let’s kind of dive in a little bit further i mean you talked about the censorship resistance and the ability to kind of uh go at scale um obviously like you said handshake’s been around for for a while and you’ve kind of heard about here and there just out of curiosity i mean it’s not an easy question answer but why didn’t if you knew about handshake before what was it that kind of finally

(04:29) got you to kind of move on it what was that kind of yeah so there were some security issues i think with handshake early in the early days which i i believe having results as i looked into them like okay this is resolved nicely i think um name base have done a pretty good job um so far on this name base name base uh that right yeah anyways okay there’s so many bases coinbase names and you know in terms of what they’ve been doing and um looking at how the domains are allocated i was a bit concerned initially with the allocation

(04:59) of some of the domains uh and i think you know the developer community’s been pretty um i’d say reasonably practical on how how these names go out there i still think there’s some issues uh around trademarks etc that we have to resolve and figure out how to make this more um you know it’s it may be that that so okay so let me let me start from where i’m coming from from civic right so civic we need to figure out a way to give you actually what civic is just oh sorry so civic is a a identity provider we’re you know the

(05:32) oldest company out there trying to build blockchain-based identity solutions in the self-sovereign kind of identity market and so having a a domain a you know effectively an identifier allows us to do a lot of interesting things so if you had vinnie dot whatever lingam for example like that would be pretty powerful then if i use that that domain that’s my identifier i can do things anonymously maybe or you know using whatever the name is on the identifier uh or you know you can create you get a whole slew of sub-domains for any

(06:01) high-level domain and give people anonymous identifiers you know it’s them so it’s like the name space is actually pretty important um we like we don’t really have a global globally unified namespace every single company has its own namespace twitter’s their namespace instagram etc so we don’t have a global namespace and so what i like about uh handshake is that you could potentially create this global namespace but the problem with a global namespace is adoption right so how do you know how do you have people like there’s a

(06:27) whole slew of companies that just aren’t going to resolve to to handshake unless it’s at scale so we’ve got the scaling issue how do you get to scale and then the problems you’re solving around sensitive resistance it’s just not in in the commercial world they don’t care about it as much because you know again the big companies they own they have their own private name space so they don’t really care about um that and when they and when they sense something they censor it that’s

(06:50) just the way it is um so how do you build censorship resistant products i mean look this is i could ramble for for a long time on all the different pros and cons and and yeah but i think from an identity perspective from civics perspective we have to figure out a way to give people the ability to purchase and own their own sort of globally neutral name space that they can use anywhere and make it portable and so i’m not saying that civics integrate uh handshake anytime soon uh but i’m personally keeping an eye on

(07:21) what what is the namespace i mean you obviously see all the if people going you know whatever jason.ethor whatever it is like you you see that happening already in that name spaces but that’s a that’s a very much it’s kind of an east namespace i guess ens um uh and it’s not neutral enough i think because in theory any project any any project can create a namespace um i guess yeah that’s i want to kind of go a little bit more into identity because i think this is an area that we don’t have a specific

(07:50) session on it but given that you’re an identity specialist you kind of mention you know the idea of having like you know unique name space for people um how do you see you know the name space being used as part of the identity stack can you help just help us to understand a little bit more about the identity stack what’s stopping uh you know a decentralized identity i mean you know in the early days we had like euport and civic and there was a whole slew of kind of companies that were looking specifically

(08:17) at decentralizing identity and kind of enabling self-sovereign identity uh but they haven’t really broken through you know end mass yet right it seems like we’re still kind of in a space where facebook you know and different types of like oh author are really kind of ruining the land what’s it going to take for you know a decentralized identity to take hold and ideally like a handshake enabled decentralized identity to kind of thing is nate the portability of namespace is actually critical if you have something like

(08:45) decentralized id so we’re working with you know a whole bunch of um standards bodies microsoft’s got the dirt there’s a few others to create decentralized identifiers and dids effectively right so that’s going to be an interesting space in the next 12 months because it ha it’s it’s evolved enough over the past four or five years that the ids will become a w3c standard very very soon a year or two maybe maybe three years but in the in the interim you know what we have to figure out is what is what

(09:14) does portability look like so if i have a namespace so what you need to figure out is if someone has a certain um identifier on civic and then they move across to a u-port or another partner how can they transfer their identity from one this particular namespace they can effectively prove ownership of all the private keys that come from there and move it across a different provider so we don’t want to we don’t want to be in a situation where we’re holding your namespace hostage if you want to go to a

(09:44) different provider you should be free to move those keys or that or whatever whatever name space you’ve chosen elsewhere and so that’s kind of like where i see it taking off over time is that you can have portable namespace and you move from different did or self-sovereign identity providers over time and you’re not tied down to any particular one and that’s that’s a really key part of being an identity provider is that we don’t want to own your identity we want you to own it and have all the information in your in your

(10:11) wallet and account there and if you want to port it make it portable move it to someone else you should be free to do that yeah that’s really interesting the idea of kind of a like portable identity i think you know these um kind of mono stacks for identity um seem to you know they’re growing for sure um and but it seems like they’re very kind of you know context uh specific so the idea that you can have maybe handshake as like a meta layer uh to be able to actually you know like have persistent reference or have you

(10:38) know kind of this portability between um identity service stacks uh seems to be an interesting way to kind of to to do it when you think about adoption um obviously just like you said you’re kind of newer to handshake but from the outside perspective when you look at the adoption of handshake what are the biggest challenges so far i mean getting into it recently what were the what were the kind of challenges that you faced and and how do you think um you know we can kind of overcome them as so i think that the biggest challenge is

(11:07) making easy people to actually buy the space so if we had to integrate this at civic for example i would just figure out a way for us to take a credit card and give you the domain in your account so like that’s that’s the one thing i’ve been looking at um for handshake is how do i sell handshake domains and how do i make money out of it right because like the commercial viability of selling um selling it and enabling it is actually one which will help the ecosystem grow because then you’re going to have

(11:33) um you know you’re going to have a whole bunch of um you have a bunch of people coming in saying because there’s a lot of people who like for me to go and buy it on you know to get good hns tokens etc like for the lay person i can do it the lay person can’t do it they want to go put in a visa mastercard they’re going to buy dot whatever their name is and own that space and own it in their civic wallet and they want to move it to a different provider in the future they can do that right and so it’s kind of what icann has done

(12:00) uh with you know godaddy and all the other tld domain providers like that that exists today that doesn’t exist for handshake right now in in a simple way for consumers and so that’s what we i think should be trying to figure out is like is it the identity providers that allow this or is it maybe even you know domain hosting companies that say okay we’ll start selling uh this but the problem is they’re resolving right so how do you resolve it to a website and um what not my sense is that once we can like we’re probably just a

(12:31) little early maybe a year or two and in about a year or two’s time i think selling handshake domains for fiat will actually be what opens it up as long as those domains can resolve somewhere whether it’s to a did or to a website or whatever what are the um other than kind of decentralized identity what are the other applications that you kind of dream about when you think about handshake what for me it’s a lot of it goes back to like i think of it a lot about like iot which i guess is like decentralized identity but for like

(12:59) things and for like digital twins i mean as we’re getting into like nfts and looking at ways to to wrap i mean there’s there’s a number of different um efforts to try and wrap uh handshake domains uh as nfts which i think will be a killer killer use case um one of the things that you think about what do you think is exciting uh where handshake can be extended into other than um you know like i guess it’s a good question i guess i struggle with giving you a good answer there because a lot of like me like i come from a very

(13:36) practical sort of perspective and that’s that’s looking out forward saying assuming all this infrastructure is in place and people are using it as well being like what else can you do with it i like i i don’t know um like i think there’s definitely an iot player look remember this is probably going to start off being a a consumer name space as a so let’s understand like the evolution of the internet and where it’s got how it’s going to right now name spaces started off being essentially either governmental

(14:05) like the namespace was for purely academic purposes companies were not using the internet uh back in the early days it was literally universities and government darpa et cetera right and then obviously you expanded then you had dot-coms and then the commercial internet came and now then you have a whole bunch of other tlds that that i can issue which is made very consumer-ish um does it does it play out the same way yeah i don’t know i don’t know i think it makes you reverse i think handshake

(14:34) may go the opposite way where it starts off just mass market consumer where consumers use it use uh domains as their own um uh you know namespace that they can use and you know for all the different reasons we spoke about before and i think that maybe then it goes from there to um you know institutions uh political activism etc where you’re saying i want unsensible right to broadcast what i want to broadcast about my views and so i think it starts more consumers than because i i don’t see companies using

(15:04) uh the hns name space right now because they don’t need to they but like what problem are we trying to solve we’re trying to solve the problem and this is this is an industry issue like blockchain decentralization is how do you prevent gatekeepers from silencing people like we’ve seen on you know whether it’s twitter and you know trump and whatever parlor it doesn’t matter like how do you prevent how do you prevent a situation where one person can say no you don’t have a voice or no we’re not

(15:32) going to surface your information and i think that’s that’s where the uprising for um for decentralization is really coming from it’s like look i’m not saying i agree with everything people who have been censored say but they have the right to say it and that’s the more important part like i think free speech is a very important part of um you know the world and yeah we’re not seeing that right now we’re seeing a lot of censorship and essential resistance is um part of the movement i guess yeah for sure for

(16:00) sure let’s kind of switch gears a little bit into the the investment side i mean you’re an active uh investor you’re a gp of multi-coin i mean you’ve been investing in this space longer than you know many people have been in this space what tell me about your your kind of investment views on handshake um you know how does one think about you know getting involved in this space is it does one buy domains is one kind of like you know hotel total handshake or what do you think are the kind of different opportunities

(16:23) what’s exciting to you yeah so i mean uh i bought some hms tokens and i’ve added to my portfolio and they’ve done well and i’m just gonna you know hold it maybe add some more to it and as i balance out the portfolio um the domains the domain stuff like i’m not really from the domain world they got like you know guys like andrew and a few others who just they they know how to build the portfolios and stuff which is great um me personally i think like just buying hms is probably good exposure to the ecosystem and

(16:54) buying and holding so that’s my that’s my play uh in decentralized sort of you know name space and uh domains i think just buy and hold the hns and and you know i’ve actually used it to buy one or two domains it was great like nice simple experience but but no one else outputted me so i got a cheap cheap i think it’s like 500 hms or something like that um uh and yeah i’ll buy some stuff which i think is interesting that i may want to use i’m not going to try and uh speculated speculate on

(17:21) domains within the hench although i have seen some domain names which are ridiculously priced and like guys like this is nuts no one’s going to pay 500 bucks for some of these namespaces that have high bids but i think just buying the buying the the coin and holding is probably one way of just supporting the ecosystem no i think that’s a really good point i think that what’s interesting about handshake is uh is that kind of as changing brought up before the real estate aspect of it and the scarcity aspect which i

(17:48) think is driving a lot of the uh the kind of engagement with the space um obviously in crypto you know price is kind of equivalent to signal uh you know the the kind of trading of it is you know the greatest marketing tool that most coins have you know beyond the actual fundamentals um and you know every time someone kind of hits a record price or everyone every time someone kind of knocks out a good secondary price on a handshake domain it just serves as a an additional signal and i’m excited for that um kind of thinking a bit a bit further

(18:19) i mean where do you think um you would like to be in the handshake community i mean you’re you’re buying a few demons here and there you’re kind of holding some handshake what what what’s your what are the areas that you think you can kind of um push and add value to um you know as a community leader uh as like you know a bitcoin kind of og and where do you think you want to spend your time to grow yeah so um i’m working closely with identity.

(18:47) com which is the sort of decentralized at any sort of foundation that we set up at civic and so trying to figure out um what we can do there with um with handshake uh maybe you know sponsor some you know uh developers to help build into that ecosystem bridge across um you know again i’ve only been involved like i’d say you’re looking for the past 30 days it’s so early but you know not not against uh finding the developers want to just focus on handshake and figure out how to tie in handshake to identity and make it a namespace for

(19:18) the ids in some way and make it highly portable and just you know sponsor and and and give grants to developers who want to build on top of that so that’s that’s kind of the way i want to play it from a purely that’s more like altruistic perspective in terms of how do we decentralize identity better globally which is going to be my goal with civic for many many years um so that’s that’s the one way and yeah i think that for me like i like to do things more practical like um arbitraging domain names is just not my

(19:45) business and not something which i i you know oh and actually to that point i think in the ecosystem it is important that we have different layers of people who play diff and have different functions in the ecosystem so you want to have a layer of investors like myself who will go and buy and just hold it and just not sell and just like i’m not selling this for for many years i don’t care what happens to price i’m not you know price sensitive and i’m not looking for a 5x or 10x i’m just going

(20:12) to hold it long term and see what happens so kind of like the the bitcoin og sort of hardly mentality and you need some of that and maybe it goes up a thousand eggs you’re going to sell hot food or something but like you know from where it is right now there’s no reason to to sell any hms just buy it up then you need people who are going to buy the domains and put them to sort of economic use by saying on a portfolio-based approach i’m going to speculate gonna you know domain squad whatever it is like trademarks and stuff aside uh i

(20:39) think there’s a lot of value in people buying generic handshake namespaces and holding it and seeing who’s willing to pay for that i’m actually a big fan of people buying and holding domain names for people who have better economic value for it i mean i’ve bought all the domains even civic i bought the dot com uh concept for how much but you know we paid a lot of money for somebody to come and i’m really glad that i could pay that money for it because that means some other kid didn’t have a crappy website on it that

(21:04) they were using to put you know honda civics on or something honda civic fan site like i think speculation on domain space and namespace is very important for um for just a healthy liquid ecosystem so so have investors you have speculators and then you have the builders who build services on top of it which is which is the next layer up they can only really do that if they know that the sort of the investor layer is actually pretty solid and growing and people are holding the tokens and get some value so you know i i think it’s like it’s

(21:34) important that we look at it as people in the ecosystem all have different um roles to play but they each kind of strengthen upon each other yeah i know i think that’s that’s really those are really important points kind of going on that that point of you know strengthening each other i mean and thinking about the community um what i mean obviously you’re kind of from the early days of bitcoin you’ve seen the rise of you know not only bitcoin but you know all of kind of blockchain and crypto um what do you think is important uh in

(22:03) order to you know kind of grow the handshake community um are there any types of you know dynamics that you witnessed in the first kind of go-around of bitcoin and another crypto um that you see in this community or things that you think are important to stay true to because like this is in my mind i mean we’ve invested in like 160 170 companies starting from like you know 2000 and well i mean i i’ve been investing since 2014.

(22:28) um i even invested in like made safe which is kind of one of the earliest centralizing remember that one yeah we was like third ico ever that was david johnson’s right yeah david johnson that was a cool project um and that was the first kind of project that really got me into decentralized internet um you know beyond bitcoin um you know but a lot of these communities that have kind of grown um you know on altcoins and different even ethereum they’ve been um you know in many ways centrally driven uh by uh you know kind

(23:01) of a foundation um what do you think is important for the handshake community i mean you think is important from your perspective so the people who are in handshake right now and the people who were in handshake two or three years ago there will never be people like them again in the community as expense so you know it’s kind of like the with any community it’s the founding people who have sort of the bigger vision for decentralized internet the the people who are coming afterwards and i’m probably on the borderline of that

(23:32) i’m like okay i’m here because yes there’s a there’s more profit motive now than there was before right yes i believed in decentralized internet before but now i’m saying okay this is how we commercialize it this is the path forward you know and from a commercial perspective then there’s a business reason for me to be here um would i be here just for the technical side well i wasn’t here two years ago so clearly not right i think it’s important but i just don’t think i didn’t have the i don’t have the

(23:54) level of passion of everyone else who’s been contributing the ecosystem for years and that’s to be applauded right that’s important you have to have these like you know loyalists people who believe in the cause at the early stage but then you also have to appreciate that the people who are coming afterwards are going to have a profit motive and they’re going to want to make sure this gets commercialized in some way because if it doesn’t get commercialized it doesn’t get to scale and it doesn’t

(24:16) get to scale all your all the efforts of the people in the first few years is going to go you know to somewhere it’ll be french right and fringe french is nice if you’re into french but if you really want to see your your sort of contribution scale to you know globally solve problems you have to appreciate that the people who come with the commercial motive um you know they their needs are different and they what makes them happy is going to be very different to um your motivations for being in the beginning but equally

(24:43) like this you know the fact that i’m saying well i’m happy to pay handshake developers and you know contribute to the ecosystem with with cash um means that you know there’s a give and take right so you want people who are saying look thanks for doing all the work but now how do we take it to the next level and yes some capital because we think that we can actually multiply that capital over over time and and i think for the ecosystem to be successful you usually have to be accepting that all participants

(25:09) you know regardless of when they join um will have different motives for being there and those motors are all valid i mean you can’t have a situation where you say we don’t want the commercial um minded people coming here because they’re going to ruin the ecosystem because now they want to sell handshake domains for fiat oh my god like that’s insane you know like guys like be practical right if you want this to go globally you need to be able to sell domains for fiat so average people don’t have to go

(25:34) and buy you know handshake tokens on some decks or wherever they want to buy it and like you know or set up a name-based account or whatever like it’s it’s it’s a lot of friction so you want to have you want to have the people with profit motives coming because at the end it’s going to enhance the it’s going to enhance the ecosystem yep yeah i i agree with that i agree with that i think you know the making handshake easier uh should be it should be a mantra for for everybody in the community um i

(26:01) still find it very hard to even explain to people that handshake is amazing but you can’t really use it on all browsers yet and you kind of have to you know switch up the resolver and and when you do that then you can kind of see this magical world uh that’s growing but realistically people don’t want to hear that they just want to be able to you know websites uh that that can kind of do this um but even kind of going through them is a bit hard so i think we’re getting there we’re getting to a point where uh it’s a

(26:27) little bit you know inch by inch it’s a little bit easier um i think now we can actually think see if there’s any questions from the community um for vinnie asking about anything from his experience with civic or anything from his you know how he’s looking at the handshake ecosystem um there was one uh comment before well there is there is one other thing i would say is from my experience buying domain names and waiting like hours seven days whatever it was to get to get the domain that’s also a problem

(26:58) for consumers right consumers don’t come in they want to set up a website they want to start using it they go now wait and even for a you know identity provider telling someone they have to wait so we may have to go to you know some sort of second layer domain name you know whatever something vanity.

(27:15) civic maybe as a namespace yes it’s okay i guess it’s not you know it doesn’t give people their own space but the the again why the auction methods there it may not be the most practical method for how handshake um domains are quickly distributed to people because the that’s the protocol that’s it i know i know sorry we got one question from joe why should i add a massive bag of cvc sell me i i don’t discuss cbc there you go that’s your my name is not tom mccarthy guys second question is um did anyone catch

(27:50) the logic and why a long term tld squatter would be good for the community can you just can you cover that again um why you know you mentioned civic i guess that’s not really a squatter i guess but um i think you mentioned um if i got that right it was something about um having people who can make better use of a domain uh actually get the domain rather than people that are just kind of using it for undervalued use cases is that is that the logic so so i i have so here’s the thing okay i like from a purely capitalist

(28:22) perspective right someone who’s who finds a domain early and squats on it okay you could argue well they’re just opportunists right but they also prevent people who have lower economic use for a domain to users so they say i go and buy you know some some great domain for like whatever domains dot domains right and i go and spend 500 hms or 5 000 hms for it and then your go daddy comes along and they’re going to pay a million bucks or 2 million bucks or 5 million bucks for it okay some huge number yeah you go vinnie you just

(28:56) squatted the domain you made yourself a million bucks or 500 bucks but i’m like well the fact that i sold it to the biggest domain in the world means they’re gonna now commercially have to get a return on that money so they’ve obviously got a plan to you know make you know create economic value now if i price it too high at 100 million no no one’s going to buy it so i’m going to lose out so like what you find in the domain space is that there’s a clearing price that makes sense for the person

(29:20) squatting and holding domain and someone with the highest economic value for that domain using it now it doesn’t apply evenly but or uniformly anyway right it does apply in the sense that there’s enough of it that actually like some of the best domains i’ve bought have been from squatters where i’ve had to pay five or six figures for the domain but i can derive millions of dollars worth of value out of those domains so i’m happy that they held it for me in a sense right right it’s kind of like

(29:46) this first few like if someone held the domain name for me that i knew i could monetize 10x when i’m paying them i’d buy it yeah yeah in a way it’s kind of creating a slightly more liquid market and true more and more true price discovery uh for the actual the value of the company absolutely it’s actually it’s actually decentralized by six discovery if you think about it right because you some of them are going to make money and the ones that are really smart are going to make more because they understand what the

(30:12) economic value of certain domains are and like this is something you can never centralize you can never centralize like there’s a database and let’s go apply capital and let’s scoop up all the domains this is why you have so many demanders out there and they all play in a different area which that which they understand and appreciate they know which domains have got value which ones don’t yeah i’m not a domain i don’t squat i’m a buyer but i like buying i love going to domain for a w for a website or an idea or

(30:38) company that i want to go and put on that domain and go i don’t mind paying ten hundred thousand i’ve paid a couple hundred grand for domain already and i’ve actually my highest domain prices i’ve paid 1.5 million dollars for yeah there’s economic value awesome well i think we’re out of time um any last words for the community vinnie um um you know like the money will come and you know just focus on where we are right now just appreciate this is very very early it’s going to be a couple of years worth

(31:08) of just hard work and getting adoption but there is a huge need for what’s happening here and and your handshakes basically like you know between handshake and ens one or two or both win in the end i don’t see another protocol coming along at this stage and overtaking it unless it’s just really really good um but i think that the people in both communities and i i you know i don’t like i don’t think anything’s wrong with ens i just think that um you know it’s good that we have choices so

(31:35) between between handshake and ems it’s great i love i love the space and i think and thanks to everyone for all the work they’ve been building over the past years and making it possible and hopefully we can use this for decentralized identities as well awesome thank you so much vinnie really appreciate it thanks john thanks [Music] everyone [Music] bye